User talk:Ceruleanwarbler2

Thanks

Very classy to remove all of my writing with just an explanation of "nuh uh." HylianAngel (talk) 15:41, 19 July 2025 (UTC)

yeah i saw it as an uncontroversial cut but i definitely could have been more mature in my explanation regardless 😓

i very much don't think we can claim anything about what the light world version of the original game is. yea we know there's an undertale-reference game in asriel's room- they also presumably own super smashing fighters, possibly even dragon blazers. the only evidence for the original game being asriel's game specifically is that it's kind of like a single route of undertale. which i don't find good enough proof to have two paragraphs of explanation on, especially in the start of the main story section. i wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be true, but i also wouldn't the surprised to find out it was anything else. f-sharp undid your undo with the explanation that tv world wasn't kris's room but that isn't really something i know much about/agree with myself, i just don't think we can claim in confidence that asriel's game is the original game. ceruleanwarbler2 (talk) 15:51, 19 July 2025 (UTC)

The leveling-up mechanic I seriously doubt exists in Super Smashing Fighters. Dragon Blazers is more believable, but there's 0 evidence the Dreemurr family owns any other game besides Cat Petters RPG, which only has a connection with Mike. The Seam being on the desktop is another hint how the Shadow Mantle ended up in the game itself and with how it got stolen.

The basis that it could be another video game is a more sensible reason for the revert, but I think the preponderance of evidence leans towards it drawing from Asriel's actual computer. The writing could use more implies or potentially's, but complete removal is too much. HylianAngel (talk) 15:59, 19 July 2025 (UTC)

I don't think there's a "preponderance of evidence" leaning towards it. If the Green Room is Kris and Asriel's bedroom, then the backstage area is the the dark underside of Asriel's bed, where you can find a game console, a knock-off controller, and an old cartridge of Cat Petters RPG.

Cat Petters RPG does not "only has a connection with Mike". The original Cat Petters has a connection with FRIEND, which appears in the fight against the Shadow Mantle Holder.

But even if it's not Cat Petters RPG, the presence of a game console in the Light World implies there's a Light World game that can be played on it. Asriel's game is just a "poorly drawn design". Remex Remige (talk) 17:49, 19 July 2025 (UTC)

It is implied that both Asriel's computer and Cat Petters RPG potentially have some influence with the content of the Original Game.

The Original Game is found in the left of the two available doors, on a pathway leading to the left side. This would potentially correlate with Asriel's left side of the bedroom, much like how the couches in the main hub area correlate with their Light World bed counterparts matching with each side of the real bedroom, despite not literally being pressed against the walls like the beds are.

The room containing the Original Game has a secret, direct connecting path between itself and the ROMB stand which contains a Maus, a potential hint that the game is connected with Asriel's computer, as the Maus is likely Asriel's computer mouse. The Maus is obviously not in the lower-left part of the room like the computer is in the real-world, so it's not a requirement for the room containing the Original Game to be Asriel's bed at all. Additionally, the first 3 letters of "ROMB" are ROM, which stands for read-only memory, a concept that is specific to computers.

Ramb is the focal character who introduces Kris to and is required for Kris to access the Original Game. The first three letters of Ramb's name are RAM, or random-access memory, another potential connection to computers. Ramb is further connected with computers, due to his origin as a Plugboy, as the other Plugboys are heavily associated with the Cyber World, which is essentially a computer-themed Dark World.

Other than the lower-left section, Kris's real room does not contain any other obvious visible items that would be related to compters, even after inspecting the available items such as the beds and the wardrobe.

The only other video game in Kris's room is Cat Petters RPG. While it is already accounted for by Cowboy Hat Mike's existence due to the shared gel pen dialogue, it is possible it has some influence on the Original Game due to the game containing cat and FRIEND enemies. While Super Smashing Fighters has been stated to have been played by Asriel in the past, no evidence of it can be found in the current Dreemurr household, and its real-life counterpart, Super Smash Bros., is a fighting game whose core gameplay does not consist of RPG mechanics, like the Original Game contains.

There are no other obvious candidates for the Original Game's Light World counterpart, nor are there any other obvious candidates for Asriel's computer's Dark World counterpart. Asriel's computer containing video game design documents would influence the identity of its related Dark World manifestation pieces, which could pertain to the Original Game, an actual video game.

Systematically killing absolutely every possible monster in order to grind EXP to the max amount before being able to progress through the Original Game's core gameplay loop is similar to the concept of the Genocide Route in Undertale. Since it is implied that Asriel's video game concepts are the basis for Undertale, these notes would contain the related info necessary for its conception. Other than Cat Petters RPG, there are no items in the bedroom that could produce or influence the Original Game's existence.

The music track title ERAM, the Shadow Mantle Holder's theme, while also being a reference to Mare from Link's Awakening, could double as a pun with Random Access Memory, similarly to Ramb, which could hint at the Shadow Mantle Holder being related to computers in some capacity.

Seam, who once owned the Shadow Mantle, is seen on the monitor for Asriel's computer. They specifically have a connection with the Original Game due to it containing the Shadow Mantle as an earnable item, further connecting the Shadow Mantle Holder with Asriel's computer.

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Obviously these are what-if's (which I would like to state many other pages on the wiki corroborate facts with singular one-if statements or pieces of speculation that are even more tenuous), so I know even after I state all of this, the obvious counter-argument is that it's still somehow too speculative. But yes, there is a preponderance of evidence, and I didn't include every little bit of this because I felt it was obvious info and it would be way too lengthy to include all of this on the page, but clearly it's not clear if people are arguing that the Green Room is not the 2nd floor of the Dreemurr House.

Sorry for any typos, still on mobile. HylianAngel (talk) 18:32, 19 July 2025 (UTC)

I don't think anyone's claiming that there isn't any evidence for this theory. You've given a lot of information here, and you've made some good observations, but there are still a lot of "could"s and "probably"s. Some of it is pretty vague too (for example, I don't think Ramb being a power strip is evidence specifically for the original game being from a desktop computer). It also can't account for other details, such as the Dragon Blazers references, the Odd Controller, etc. The original game is a complex and mysterious plot device - whatever it might be, it's definitely not just the Dark World version of a single video game. Regardless, even if it did prove your theory, we can't exactly provide all this info in a concise wiki page.

Side note - the fact that this kind of speculation exists on other pages isn't too strong an argument to me. That's more an argument for changing those other pages than adding speculation to this one. Sam Gorman (talk) 18:44, 19 July 2025 (UTC)

I've observed and read many pages of the wiki; maybe this is slight exaggeration, but pretty much any page that's longer than 3 or 4 paragraphs, and all the big character pages, have the word "implied," "possible," or "likely" somewhere on it. Characters often use aliases when talking about others, Dark World items have stated Light World counterparts based on what they look or are named even if a Light World counterpart is not visible, and it would be impossible to talk about certain topics without saying there are implications. You'd have to axe a large amount of content if absolutely no speculation was allowed. The difference between what should and shouldn't be allowed is obviously how reasonable the connections are, and using good clear language to make it clear when these connections aren't factual.

I'm saddened that several users do not agree that the two subjects are connected (when it felt clear to me), but I appreciate everyone's thoughtful input on the topic. 19:01, 19 July 2025 (UTC) HylianAngel (talk) 19:01, 19 July 2025 (UTC)

You're right that the wiki does document many things that are only implied and there's quite a few "potentially" trivia points floating around pages, but I think that so far we only documented such speculation when it's (a) backed by evidence that isn't just implied and (b) the alternative interpretations are significantly less plausible. This isn't a hard rule, though... it's always a balance between writing some connections that are only implied for better documentation, and cutting speculation as to not mislead the reader. We have editors who wouldn't document White Cloak's connections to Noelle, and we have editors who would rename the Voice page to W.D. Gaster. So the way we reach this balance is through discussion.

Sorry for joining in late to this! I'm glad you resolved it, and sorry about the initial misunderstanding. I admittedly also thought, on first glance, that the text would be too speculative for its removal to be controversial, and didn't realize how many things pointed towards that. KockaAdmiralac (talk) 02:47, 20 July 2025 (UTC)

I'm okay if my edits are reverted for a logical reason in the edit summary, but I refuse to accept "nuh uh," it's completely disrespectful. If I made a vandal edit, then okay sure type "nuh uh," but doing it to a good-faith edit pisses me off. I concede that my edit needed to be removed or very altered. HylianAngel (talk) 03:10, 20 July 2025 (UTC)

And I agree with you that "nuh uh" is unsuitable for good faith edits. But I'm pretty sure Cerulean didn't mean any ill will towards you and the lack of a meaningful edit summary was a habit of leaving silly edit summaries (such as "added duster mother 3") and not meant as an insult to your work. From the related conversation on Discord, I think she learned this lesson as well. KockaAdmiralac (talk) 04:30, 20 July 2025 (UTC)

Thank you for apologizing and being very polite even though you haven't done anything wrong. HylianAngel (talk) 03:20, 20 July 2025 (UTC)

I'll clean it up so it lays out all of the facts and details about the connections, while only using words like "potentially," but for the love of God, don't remove literally all of it again until then. HylianAngel (talk) 16:17, 19 July 2025 (UTC)

i am sorry but i am discussing this instead of going straight to cut it all, and i still think more discussion is warranted before we decide what to do with it ceruleanwarbler2 (talk) 16:27, 19 July 2025 (UTC)

I was just noticing this as well. It's a well-founded theory, but in my opinion, the way it's presented on the page makes it seem to an average reader like the only possibility. Anything that has to use a lot of "likely"s and "potentially"s is probably not a good fit for the main section of an article.

Besides, although it's a plausible theory, there are other possibilities with some amount of proof as well. As one example, the 2nd sword board references the "Ice Palace" in Dragon Blazers mentioned by Noelle, and one page on the Sweepstakes indisputably references this board, right down to a song called "Glaceir". The actual origin of the original game, and the presence of the Mantle, may be a combination of several of these things, or something we haven't learned yet (after all, it's clearly more than just a game narratively). Presenting only this single theory actually provides less information than having nothing at all.

At the very least, my proposal was to move that passage down to a "Trivia" section or something. I'm new to the wiki, so I'm not sure if such a section is suitable for a page like this. But if we're not going to reference other possibilities, moving it out of the main section would at least make it clearer that it's not yet fact confirmed by the game. Sam Gorman (talk) 17:15, 19 July 2025 (UTC)

trivia sections here (and on most fanwikis) have become the dumping ground for irrelevant information and speculation. we have a whole project about cutting it: https://undertale.wiki/d/t/trivia-reorganization-project/325 (since you're new here it's a great post to look at for what you can contribute winks nudges even if a lot of the work has been done)

so yeah im a hard no on putting it in trivia :P if it's true, it goes in main story. if it's speculative, we don't include it at all. ceruleanwarbler2 (talk) 18:13, 19 July 2025 (UTC)

I was trying to be nice lol - I thought moving it might at least be a step in the right direction. If that's not on the table, imo the only options are removing it, or padding it with qualifiers and alternative theories. I'm personally in favour of not including it at all, since the latter option would just snowball. There are lots of other online spaces for theorizing.

You make a good point about trivia sections, btw. All these things are important to consider if you want to create a professional resource. Sam Gorman (talk) 18:28, 19 July 2025 (UTC)

you are very nice let's skip into the sunset :) ceruleanwarbler2 (talk) 18:40, 19 July 2025 (UTC)

Shadow Mantle page

Regarding this edit, I don't think it's speculative to draw a comparison to the physical appearance of both objects. I feel it's worth noting that there are two black mantles. The reasoning for the removed trivia is the linked discussion, but when I checked it, it's 2 people thinking it should be noted and 2 people who think it shouldn't be noted, and the tie would be broken if SnorlaxMonster who added it is in support of having it on the page (unless they changed their mind since then).

I would be okay with removing it if the statement contained any speculation, but it doesn't, and it leaves the reader to draw their own conclusion. HylianAngel (talk) 20:58, 7 August 2025 (UTC)

i honestly think including king's mantle on that page is inherently theorizing, even if we don't explicitly write the conclusion ourselves. why would it be listed if it wasn't relevant yknow? putting that information on the page is making a statement on it.

i think it'd be best to talk about this on the discussion page though since as you said more people have opinions on this. ceruleanwarbler2 (talk) 23:25, 7 August 2025 (UTC)

That's a valid concern to have, but I don't think that applies here. If it was true, then all comparisons involving visual similarities would need to be removed from the wiki for being theories. It's only a theory if there is additional information trying to imply the connection between the two subjects.

• Not a theory: x looks similar to y for such and such reasons.
• A theory: x looks similar to y for such and such reasons, so z must be true.

You're totally right that relevancy is important in whether or not it's actually worthwhile to draw any comparisons between the two subjects. Honestly the fact that there are two visually-similar-looking black objects of the same type, in the same video game, in my opinion is valid enough to mention this somewhere. If they didn't look similar, and if they weren't from the same video game, then it wouldn't be noteworthy.

Kris's page mentions visual similarities with Frisk, Tenna's page mentions visual similarities with TV Dinnah, Spamton's page mentions visual similarities with Flowey, etc., but none of these are actually theories, but just noteworthy comparisons to draw. HylianAngel (talk) 00:43, 8 August 2025 (UTC)

all good points. i just posted in the discussion again for other people's input, partially because im still on the fence and partially because this is definitely going to come up again so we should get wider consensus. i can get behind readding it if people agree. ceruleanwarbler2 (talk) 01:42, 8 August 2025 (UTC)

Thank you for bringing up the topic again there. I'm also on board with whichever side gets more support. And it's totally understandable if it shouldn't be there for the sensible reasons you and others have discussed. HylianAngel (talk) 01:48, 8 August 2025 (UTC)

thank you as well, you have a very good argument and i believe i will be satisfied with the outcome either way as well. ceruleanwarbler2 (talk) 02:49, 8 August 2025 (UTC)

I admit, I was initially hesitant to add it to the Shadow Mantle page, because it did seem to implicitly be speculation, so I tried to make the comparison as objective as possible. Other editors added more details about the visual similarity between the two mantles, although I think just the name comparison alone would be sufficient for the trivia section (and let readers draw their own conclusions about their visual similarities).

I think it is relevant that King's garment and the Shadow Mantle are the only two items in Deltarune that have been explicitly called "mantles" (excluding the unused Sky Mantle), which is a fairly obscure term in English. Especially since King's garment looks a lot more like a cape or cloak than a mantle, so it would seem like Toby is intentionally trying to hint at something by using that term.

I think the fact that Toby called the garment a "mantle" is something that should be noted somewhere on the wiki; however, potentially the Shadow Mantle page is the wrong place to put this note. The King page could certainly note that Toby described the garment as a "mantle" without needing to draw a comparison to the Shadow Mantle. And if a page was ever created for the UNDERTALE 6th Anniversary stream, that detail could go on that page as well. SnorlaxMonster 06:07, 9 August 2025 (UTC)

If the trivia ever returns to the Shadow Mantle page, I think there needs to be more elaboration besides stating that they are both mantles, since even Kris wears a mantle. If every mantle was relevant, then it would need to be mentioned on Kris's page, but it's really only relevant to the Shadow Mantle, due to the visual similarities (like their color, shape, and how they both flow like water in the wind). Another more tentative reason, which shouldn't be added due to the speculation aspect, is that King's mantle disappears and then Shadow Mantle appears in Chapter 3's story; one could draw the conclusion that they are never both seen at the same time and could be the same one. (Again don't think the fact that they never appear at the same time should be stated anywhere on the wiki, but I feel like their visual similarities and the disappearance/reappearance, are really the only 2 things I can see in support for "relevancy" pretty much.) HylianAngel (talk) 06:15, 9 August 2025 (UTC)