Talk:Kris

Discussion with Catti in Diner (Chapter 2)

When you choose the topic of "Noelle", Catti reveals that Kris once studied occult practices with her. Can someone add that to the trivia? I'm too lazy to find a screenshot and write it up lol—Preceding unsigned comment added by Y9m9moo6 (talk • contribs) (please sign your comments using ~~~~)

It is mentioned in the Personality section instead. It's noteworthy, but not much can be added to it until later Chapters are released. — Link Hylian Champion (talk • contribs) 03:23, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Personality and Main Story Expansion?

Should the sections about Kris's agency or events hinted at that must have happened prior to Player control be changed or expanded based on available in-game context? There's quite a fair bit about Kris that doesn't seem to be explored in the article that is hinted at by text in the game, ranging all the way from Alphys being surprised that Kris was attending class in Chapter 1 when she believed he wouldn't (without divulging the reason), all the way to every background element within the bedroom they share with Asriel alongside the tailor-made room in Queen's Mansion based on their search engine history (the latter of which are already helpfully listed in its article here). A lot of content that has been available in Chapter 1 is absent here that can be gleaned from the way everyone interacts with Kris when they return from defeating the King, but a lot of it has not been properly documented on the NPCs' pages (Kris's apparent history of wanting to hang out with kids older than him and closer to his brother's age, to the point that Bratty managed to make him her 'gopher' for sickening amounts of junk food, Kris's reactions to some of the other students' aversion or derision to Susie, etcetera). ElTipejoLoco (talk) 19:48, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure about the Alphys bit, since Toriel wakes Kris up in Ch 1 + one of Susie's early Ch 1 dialogue mentions Toriel fretting if Kris skips school. Otherwise, everything mentioned here was added either to Personality or Relationships. Some of it might be moved later. — Link Hylian Champion (talk • contribs) 04:11, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Queen's Nickname for Kris

Don't forget "Kris Cross Applesauce".—Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.220.45.56 (talk • contribs) (please sign your comments using ~~~~)

I do not think we need to list every nickname that was ever used for a character in the infobox. -- Cube-shaped garbage can 07:16, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Kris potential personality addition

In the rollercoaster battle in Chapter 2, Berdly suggests that Kris might be jealous because he is number third in the class in terms of grades, right behind Noelle and Berdly. I always thought that Kris might be a poor student because he is always late to school and sleeps in class but I suppose not. I believe this juxtaposition of personality is important!!—Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.36.122.131 (talk • contribs) (please sign your comments using ~~~~)

Kris Gender and Aka

Concerning Special:Permalink/53546 I added it as an extension without removal, even as a joke Lancer could have said husband and cookie or cookie and Kris. I think it should be reverted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jentlekid (talk • contribs) (please sign your comments using ~~~~)

It doesn't make any sense why Lancer would know Kris's gender better than everyone in Hometown. -- Cube-shaped garbage can 20:53, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Well, Rabbick dialogue when using BlowX implies Kris to be a girl, but then again nothing else does, and yes Lancer also contradicts this so who knows? [Furgolick] _{Also Furgolick10} 8:09, 26 October 2022 (EST)

I'd just like to clarify on this, the Rabbick dialogue after being blown on isn't talking about Kris, it's Rabbick talking about itself. Rabbicks have a random chance(?) of being boys or girls, and the dialogue will change because of that. It has two different lines each for boy and girl, you can see them on the page for Rabbick on here. PeriwinkleDreams (talk) 20:48, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Claims of Kris being non-binary in the Trivia section

There is absolutely no reason for the Trivia section to make claims about Kris being non-binary. The only evidence is the "they/them" pronouns, and we know from the Legends of Localization book that that's not proof of a character being intended to be non-binary. We should have our only statement on Kris' gender be the opening sentence in the Profile section. Eldomtom3 (talk) 10:31, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

The trivia bit stating "This may suggest Kris identifies as non-binary." was a long-standing piece of trivia, and I feel that such wording is better than discussing player interpretation, which is less relevant to in-universe facts (the main focus of this wiki) than actual canon implications. The bullet point stating "This may suggest Kris identifies as non-binary." would have made more sense with its original parent bullet point about Kris's pronouns, which was recently removed, but rewording could be done to make a standalone bullet point about Kris's gender. I still believe that Kris is heavily non-binary-coded because of their gender-neutral name, their pronouns, and their ambiguous gender presentation, so I think it makes sense to mention something about Kris possibly being non-binary. I also don't think it was necessary to remove the point about Kris's name being neutral. HaiFire3344 (talk) 18:04, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

While discussion occurs, I've decided to restore the format of the trivia roughly as it appeared on February 15, 2023, as I think it's best to leave it in what I assume is its least controversial state while awaiting consensus. I moved some things from Appearance to Trivia because pronouns are a form of gender expression, but they aren't an aspect of Kris's physical appearance. It's common to assume a feminine individual using she/her is female, and to assume a masculine individual using he/him is male, even if not stated, so it only makes sense that an ambiguous-presenting individual with a neutral name who uses they/them may be non-binary. HaiFire3344 (talk) 18:36, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Hello, but are you doing the right thing when you leave only one option? Also the wording "This may suggest Kris identifies as non-binary." we can't say for sure about that, and if you don't care then it's against the Control Theme, you want to write how people think about Kris rather than how Kris thinks about themself. Like, besides "non-binary" there are many options, but why one? I don’t know about you, but I don’t like it, I would remove this line altogether until we wait for the next chapters of Deltarune. DubstepDude1 (talk) 05:10, 03 June 2023 (UTC)

Kris uses they/them pronouns, not it/its pronouns (unless you believe Kris is the Knight, which is unconfirmed). Also, this wiki covers facts and the implications associated with them, and there are very few options aside from female, male, and non-binary for Kris's gender since almost everything outside the binary falls under the non-binary umbrella I believe, and Kris doesn't seem to be binary so we can rule out female or male. Kris has an identity of their own, it's just not stated, because there is no need to state it; the implication that they are non-binary is shown in other ways. Again, consider how in everyday life, people assume that other people have a binary gender, but suddenly, the same logic doesn't work for a non-binary-coded person? It doesn't make sense. HaiFire3344 (talk) 05:22, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Regarding the pronoun it/its, it was a gross mistake on my part, about the rest, I probably just put up with it. Like, for me it's strange, well, let it be. DubstepDude1 (talk) 05:31, 03 June 2023 (UTC)

"Kris doesn't seem to be binary so we can rule out female or male." I'm sorry, this is my exact problem with your argument. The evidence - from what has been said about Toby's other characters solely referred to with they/them pronouns in the Legends of Localization book - is that Kris' gender is meant to be unstated/ambiguous. Eldomtom3 (talk) 10:31, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Non-binary is one possible option for a character whose gender is unstated, and it seems like the most likely option in Kris's case, given their ambiguous gender presentation and neutral name. Also, the connection between Undertale and Deltarune isn't really clear at the moment, so things that apply to Undertale may not apply to Deltarune, or at least not in the same way. HaiFire3344 (talk) 14:23, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

If Kris' presentation wasn't neutral, then their gender would be a lot less ambiguous. You cannot use Kris' gender being ambiguous to argue for them being non-binary, that's circular logic. As for your claims about the Undertale/Deltarune connection, a) we are not talking in diegetic terms here, so the nature of the connection is irrelevant, and b) it's better evidence that anything that's been put forward to argue Kris is canonically non-binary, since it actually has Toby's seal of approval. Eldomtom3 (talk) 22:40, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Whether you consider Kris's presentation to be ambiguous or neutral, both terms describe a type of gender quality that is heavily associated with non-binary individuals, even if not exclusively so. Also, the unclear connection between Undertale and Deltarune does still have non-diegetic implications, in my opinion, as there can easily be different motivations and inspirations behind concepts appearing in Deltarune than in Undertale. Just because Toby Fox handled things in a certain way for Undertale doesn't mean things were handled in the same way for Deltarune. Kris also has a more defined personality and has been known in the city for longer than, say, Frisk, who is also referred to with they/them pronouns. Even if a character's gender is meant for the player to interpret and assign on their own, how does the character actually identify in canon? They have to have some kind of identity, and there has to be some reason why the characters are using they/them to refer to these characters in-universe, so the character being non-binary as the "true gender" seems like the most likely option (similar logic applies to Chara, who is named by the player but also has a "true name"). HaiFire3344 (talk) 23:59, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

"Whether you consider Kris's presentation to be ambiguous or neutral, both terms describe a type of gender quality that is heavily associated with non-binary individuals, even if not exclusively so." - How is someone supposed to create a character who's gender is unstated without people assuming they're nonbinary then?

"Kris also has a more defined personality and has been known in the city for longer than, say, Frisk, who is also referred to with they/them pronouns." - I'm not just talking about Frisk. I'm talking about Napstablook, Monster Kid, Onionsan, etc.

"Even if a character's gender is meant for the player to interpret and assign on their own, how does the character actually identify in canon? They have to have some kind of identity" - No. This is a bad argument. The very point of leaving a character's gender unstated is to let the player decide. By definition there is no canon answer. For an example of this sort of thing, look at Undertale. Frisk must logically be a specific age, but do we ever find out what that is? No.

"and there has to be some reason why the characters are using they/them to refer to these characters in-universe" - No there doesn't. See my previous point, and you can use "they/them" to refer to people of all genders. And the dialogue in Deltarune is never 100% realistic to begin with. And in addition, are you arguing that Toby should have never used pronouns to refer to Kris if he didn't want people to see them as canonically nonbinary? That would prevent him from having dialogue where it's ambiguous if it's Kris being referred to or someone else (see, for instance, Noelle saying "I can still hear their voice".

Also, if Kris was canonically nonbinary, why hasn't Toby or any of the other devs said that they are? Eldomtom3 (talk) 23:20, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

1. Having an unstated gender is not the same thing as having an ambiguous or neutral gender presentation. Someone could have, for example, a feminine or masculine presentation, with their gender not being explicitly stated, and others might assume they are female, male, etc.
2. Frisk is the most similar character to Kris aside from Chara, hence why I used Frisk as an example. My other points still stand.
3. How can you be certain that it was Toby's intention with either Undertale or Deltarune to have there be no canon answer for particular characters' genders? Even if that were the reason for Toby leaving it to the player to decide their genders (if that was even Toby's intention either), we need actual confirmation/proof that there is no canon answer, and I feel like it's more likely that there is a canon answer since there's a canon answer for Chara's name (the difference with Chara is that there is a gameplay mechanic for choosing Chara's name, while there is no mechanic to choose Kris's gender). Also, just because we don't find out Frisk's age doesn't mean they don't have any specific age, so you can't assume Kris has no specific/canon gender just because their gender isn't stated.
4. Again, how can you say for certain that there doesn't have to be a reason? Do you know what Toby's exact intentions were? I know that pronouns are not gender-exclusive, but they/them pronouns are heavily associated with non-binary individuals—not exclusively of course, but still. Even if the dialogue in Deltarune isn't always 100% realistic, I feel like it's likely that Toby considered how they/them pronouns tend to be used in real life when setting those as Kris's pronouns. The question still begged is why Kris would just randomly be referred to with they/them pronouns, possibly for no reason? I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that a non-binary explanation for Kris's gender and gender expression is possible. There are other reasons aside from their pronouns to believe that Kris may be non-binary that I have previously discussed. Toby could have very well just had characters avoid using pronouns in reference to Kris, but they/them was decided on, and we don't know which Toby came up with first: using they/them pronouns for Kris in general, or creating that ambiguous line for Noelle. However, based on the fact that Frisk, Chara, and other characters are precedents for using they/them pronouns for and not stating the gender of a character, regardless of a desire to create ambiguous lines of dialogue, it's very likely that they/them had always been in mind/considered for Kris, or was always planned or straight-up used for Kris, with the ambiguous lines just being a bonus that came out of that; alternatively, Toby could have decided to make Kris non-binary because it allowed those ambiguous lines to exist, or something like that, perhaps. Overall, I think a non-binary explanation for Kris using they/them makes the most sense.
5. None of the devs have said anything about Kris being non-binary because there is no need to say it, it is already heavily implied in enough ways for folks to get the message. Even if it hasn't been explicitly confirmed, the trivia acknowledges that it is plausible that Kris is non-binary. HaiFire3344 (talk) 00:32, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

"Someone could have, for example, a feminine or masculine presentation, with their gender not being explicitly stated, and others might assume they are female, male, etc." - Yes, which is why you would probably want to avoid making a character who's gender you want to leave ambiguous be noticeably masculine or feminine. Yet you seem to be arguing that by doing so a writer is inherently implying the character is non-binary.

"How can you be certain that it was Toby's intention with either Undertale or Deltarune to have there be no canon answer for particular characters' genders?" - This works both ways. Why is it more plausible that Toby intended particular characters to be canonically nonbinary, especially when he's never said that they are and has approved books that say their gender is "unstated", implying they have no canon gender?

"there's a canon answer for Chara's name" - that's a weird meta gag that I wouldn't say is especially relevant.

"Also, just because we don't find out Frisk's age doesn't mean they don't have any specific age" - This is my entire point. We don't include fan speculation on Frisk's age, so what makes Kris' gender any different?

"Again, how can you say for certain that there doesn't have to be a reason?" - Er, you do realise that saying there doesn't have to be a reason isn't the same thing as saying there definitely isn't a reason, right?

"The question still begged is why Kris would just randomly be referred to with they/them pronouns, possibly for no reason?" - Are you talking from an in-universe or out-of-universe perspective here? From an out-of-universe perspective there are plenty of reasons.

"There are other reasons aside from their pronouns to believe that Kris may be non-binary that I have previously discussed." - Any other arguments besides their gender presentation? Because I can always break out my arguments for Kris being much more masculine than feminine...

"Toby could have very well just had characters avoid using pronouns in reference to Kris" - Try writing hundreds of lines of dialogue about a character while never using pronouns to refer to them. It's very hard to keep it sounding natural, especially if you have to refer to them more than once in the same sentence.

"we don't know which Toby came up with first: using they/them pronouns for Kris in general, or creating that ambiguous line for Noelle" - Either way, unless you argue that that line is meant to be unambiguously referring to Kris, Toby is referring to a character - the player - with they/them to keep their gender ambiguous.

"Overall, I think a non-binary explanation for Kris using they/them makes the most sense." - Why? And most importantly, why does this theory have be enshrined as trivia on the wiki?

"None of the devs have said anything about Kris being non-binary because there is no need to say it, it is already heavily implied in enough ways for folks to get the message." - Well plenty of people haven't got the message in that case, especially when it comes to Frisk, Chara, etc. Why the silence? What do the devs lose by making an official statement or making it explicit in the game?

"Even if it hasn't been explicitly confirmed, the trivia acknowledges that it is plausible that Kris is non-binary." - Yes, it's plausible. But it's just as plausible that they're not non-binary, and the trivia doesn't acknowledge that. Eldomtom3 (talk) 23:06, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

1. This is another aspect where the question of "what is the in-universe explanation for the character having this type of gender expression" comes up. If a character physically presents in an ambiguous or neutral way, one might take this as a reason to believe the character may be non-binary, especially when such a physical presentation is combined with other forms of gender expression, like name and pronouns, that are associated with ambiguous or neutral gender quality.
2. Unstated is not the same thing as null. The genders of particular characters being unstated does not imply that they have no canon gender, as I previously explained. In fact, if you want to really get creative with interpreting such official statements while still going by your logic, you could argue that Kris and other characters are agiaspec, which technically falls under the non-binary umbrella.
3. Even if Chara's true name is a "weird meta gag" about "Chara" being an internal name that is short for "Character" (if that's what you're referring to), it may be a serious name at the same time. Chara's name is also used in the Undertale Greenlight Trailer.
4. There aren't really any hints about the exact age of Frisk; all we know is that they're a child. Meanwhile, there are hints about what Kris's gender might be.
5. When I asked "how can you say for certain that there doesn't have to be a reason", I was referring to the fact that you responded with "No there doesn't" to me saying that there has to be some reason for characters who use they/them being referred to with those pronouns in-universe. Other than that, this is getting too meta for me. Now yes, maybe this in-universe pronoun usage could be arbitrary, but we don't know that for certain; anything is possible, including Kris being non-binary.
6. I'm talking from an in-universe perspective. From an out-of-universe perspective, we still need more information before there can even be a chance of ruling out the possibility of Kris being non-binary.
7. The other reasons aside from pronouns are Kris's ambiguous gender presentation and their neutral name. Kris seeming "much more masculine than feminine" to you is not a good argument against Kris being non-binary; non-binary people are allowed to lean toward, with their gender expression, particular gender qualities associated with the binary to whatever degree they wish. I just see Kris as having an ambiguous/neutral gender expression. Also, if you really feel the need to grab at straws and find any way you can think of to link Kris to the binary in some way (I've seen someone say they "consider Kris male" or something along those lines, and their excuse was that their name is supposedly "more associated with men" or whatever, which is just wrong), then you're basically just engaging in non-binary erasure.
8. Pronoun avoidance is not impossible, and the fact that nullpronominal individuals exist in real life further proves that.
9. You say "Toby is referring to a character - the player - with they/them to keep their gender ambiguous." But the player and Kris are heavily implied to be separate entities. Also, "keeping the gender ambiguous" is not the point I was arguing on for the point about Noelle's ambiguous dialogue, but I'm not gonna repeat myself on the matter of the intentions behind having characters refer to Kris with they/them pronouns.
10. I think I've said more than enough to explain why I believe that a non-binary explanation for Kris using they/them makes the most sense. It is highly plausible that Kris is non-binary, and it's fine for a piece of trivia to acknowledge something that is highly plausible.
11. If someone hasn't got the message, that's on them. Maybe the devs don't want to spoil something and that's why they haven't made an official statement about the genders of Kris, Frisk, or Chara. And there are still more chapters of Deltarune to come; maybe those will elaborate on the topic of Kris's gender, maybe they won't, who knows.
12. Based on everything I have explained, I think it is more plausible that Kris is non-binary than that they aren't. There is no point in adding "But also, this may not be the case." to the trivia. I don't see what the big deal is with the trivia noting a possible answer for Kris's gender. Anyone can gather, even without reading the wiki, that Kris's gender has not been stated, but readers may be confused if we don't elaborate. Please don't forget that the trivia bit simply says "This may suggest Kris identifies as non-binary." It does not say "This means Kris identifies as non-binary." We are saying that Kris using they/them pronouns may suggest that Kris is non-binary because they/them pronouns are heavily associated with non-binary individuals. I would also like to add that quite a few of your points have come off as reinforcing exorsexist perceptions of the non-binary community, and your comment about "[breaking] out [your] arguments for Kris being much more masculine than feminine" is particularly egregious; just from that alone, I feel like you're either very misinformed or just an exorsexist troll, especially considering how much you're reaching in order to dismiss the most obvious implications of Kris's they/them pronouns. In fact, this conversation is starting to devolve into a general argument about whether Kris is non-binary or not, irrespective of the trivia. I think the trivia is fine and nobody was complaining about it until now, but I'm getting tired of arguing about this, and it would be appreciated if a wiki staff member could step in and say something about this. HaiFire3344 (talk) 01:00, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

I think this as well. I've considered that trivia point as teetering on speculating. From what I noticed, it had been repeatedly edited by multiple different users... that's not a good sign on keeping the trivia point. I think a better option is to replace it with a trivia point where Toby corrects Kris's pronoun from the anniversary livestream instead. — Link Hylian Champion » [ T | C ] 23:59, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

I don't really think it's speculating, it's more just putting forward a plausible explanation that makes the most sense when you consider the main group that they/them pronouns are associated with. See my other replies for more on this. The fact that it has been repeatedly edited by multiple users is not a fault of the trivia point; it probably says more about the fact that folks either don't understand non-binary experiences, don't understand non-binary representation, or are just exorsexist. Replacing it with a trivia point about how Toby corrected Kris's pronouns would not really add much because it doesn't really tell us anything about Toby's motivations with regard to Kris's gender and gender expression. It would actually be more speculative to draw a conclusion about the intent or meaning behind the correction. HaiFire3344 (talk) 01:00, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Okay, so I literally just remembered Fandom's Gender Identity Guidelines exist, and they are pretty clear about this:

• Individuals who declare themselves to be gender non-binary should utilize they/them.

In fictional worlds, hints or allusions are sometimes used before a character is revealed to be transgender or non-binary. However, without a definitive statement of identification from the character, it is proper to defer to how the character is generally portrayed by others in the setting. For instance, if others refer to the character by using 'he/him' pronouns, until the character declares something that would contradict that, he should continue to be referred to as such.

Now, this may not seem like much at first, and you may assume it doesn't have any implications for this discussion. But take a look at this edit that a Fandom Community Manager made to a page on the Pokémon Wiki. Officially, Blanche has not been explicitly confirmed to be non-binary, but Fandom Staff were editing Blanche's page at that time to correct Blanche's pronouns (they use they/them), remove wording that misgenders them, and comply with the Gender Identity Guidelines, and this Community Manager made it say that Blanche is non-binary after initially making it say that Blanche's gender is unspecified. Consequently, there is precedent with regard to the platform-wide guidelines for assuming that a character who uses they/them is non-binary and wording things on an article accordingly. As such, we should not remove the trivia point about Kris potentially being non-binary, as doing so without a good reason could, at the very least, not be suitable for the Gender Identity Guidelines. I realize the trivia only says that Kris's pronouns "may suggest" they identify as non-binary, but this is a very similar situation to that of Blanche, and what I have found shows that removing the trivia point without a good reason could easily make Fandom monitor what's going on with the page history, or even just flat-out take action to restore the trivia point, so removing it shouldn't be risked. Sorry if I came off as aggressive or made assumptions in this discussion, this is just a topic I feel strongly about, and I'm glad I found something that settles this argument once and for all! HaiFire3344 (talk) 01:57, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

It doesn't settle the argument "once and for all" because it's not an official policy statement. I note that in the Gender Identity Guidelines it is stated that Fandom staff can be contacted for further clarification, so I have done so. I will post the response when I receive it. In the meantime I will not reply further to your argument as we're unlikely to convince each other (and of course the official response will render the arguing pointless). Eldomtom3 (talk) 23:22, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Finally received a response, apparently they "don't want to take the matter out of the community's hands", so no clarification on what the guidelines mean in this scenario. This does imply that removing the trivia wouldn't violate the guidelines, however. Eldomtom3 (talk) 15:37, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

I know this isn't TV Tropes, but this TV Tropes ATT thread seemingly found consensus for Kris being non-binary, as Kris subverts the Featureless Protagonist trope and has their own life in which they do their own things when not being possessed by the player, they are exclusively referred to with gender-neutral terms (even when their brother isn't), and you explicitly don't get to name Kris. The reason Kris's gender hasn't been explicitly spelled out in-universe is probably because the society isn't cisheteronormative. Combine these with the facts that Kris is never referred to with any set of pronouns other than they/them, has had their pronouns officially corrected more than once, has a neutral name, and has a neutral gender presentation, and you get a character for whom it is actually extremely unlikely that they aren't non-binary. As such, I see no point in removing the trivia. HaiFire3344 (talk) 17:01, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

"Kris subverts the Featureless Protagonist trope" - except in regards to stuff like ethnicity and age, as I have already pointed out.

"The reason Kris's gender hasn't been explicitly spelled out in-universe is probably because the society isn't cisheteronormative" - And why hasn't their gender been explicitly spelled out out-of-universe?

"has had their pronouns officially corrected more than once" - I know about the supposed correction in the livestream, but I've never heard of anything outside of that. What are you referring to? Eldomtom3 (talk) 12:11, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

I don't think any Undertale/Deltarune character has a confirmed specific age other than some general term indicating childhood or adulthood (ages are especially vague with regard to all the students), but I could be wrong. With regard to ethnicity, we don't even know why Kris has yellow or blue skin, but the Light World is very clearly different from real life, which may mean that cultural histories and ethnic groups developed differently, and the society not being cisheteronormative already strongly supports Kris being non-binary since there is other more "obvious" (at least by your apparent standards) queer representation in both Deltarune and Undertale, which I don't think any of the devs have given specific identities to the characters for out-of-universe, and that may be because different terminology is used in-universe, both for gender and ethnic groups perhaps. Genders have been explicitly mentioned before in Deltarune, so it's possible that when someone is non-binary, there just isn't a need to say anything about it explicitly or they don't have the terms to do so because the society is already non-cisnormative. Plus, we don't know exactly how different Deltarune is from the real world, and I think it's better to just take the representation at face value based on the evidence presented (like on the ATT thread I linked, which I'd strongly suggest reading). The second correction was on a Fangamer merch description, and was mentioned on the ATT thread. All this said, I have sent a message to KockaAdmiralac requesting dispute resolution, as I see this going nowhere, and I have provided my summary of the dispute. Please provide yours there to continue. HaiFire3344 (talk) 16:23, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Hi, I'll just add that "Age" doesn't reflect anyone's actual age, it's basically just a random metric to show social standing. I don't think age matters. DubstepDude1 (talk) 16:36, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

I mean, age is kind of important in some regards, but I agree that it's not important to this particular matter. By the way, I would like to invite you to join the dispute resolution thread, as you have participated in this discussion before. You don't have to join it if you don't want to, of course, but you may be able to assist in reaching a consensus. Feel free to post your summary of the dispute on the wall if you decide to join in! HaiFire3344 (talk) 17:08, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

This situation has been resolved through a discussion in the wiki Discord server. HaiFire3344 (talk) 22:50, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Kris’s dark world wardrobe

Ralsei refers to the cape-like accessory worn by Kris as an Ascot in the line “I can… um, hem some floral patterns into your ascot.” Which both implies Ralsei knows how to hem things, and that what Kris is wearing is an ascot.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.240.99.242 (talk • contribs) (please sign your comments using ~~~~)

Also refered to as "Lightbringer" by King

This is potentially relevant—Preceding unsigned comment added by AnnoyingDoggoX1 (talk • contribs) (please sign your comments using ~~~~)

Kris And The Knight

"Whether this means that Kris is actually the Knight is unclear."
I'm pretty sure Toby has said that Kris is NOT the Knight.
-Mugen Kagemaru (talk) 20:24, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Where? -- Cube-shaped garbage can 20:25, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Kris' Gender

Based on what I saw in this talk page, I feel that discussing about Kris' gender is very dangerous to do here. I mainly just want to ask on why Frisk and Chara's page in Undertale Wiki does not mention about them being non-binary while in Kris' page it does. I am sorry if my word choice would offend anyone reading this and there could be an official answer to this, but it just sticks out to me while comparing the three humans wiki page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PPP-Man (talk • contribs) (please sign your comments using ~~~~)

It's mostly because Kris has far more screentime to assert themselves as an individual and for other characters to refer to them as they/them. It's still a bit more ambiguous with Frisk and Chara, and we don't get people arguing about those two as often on-wiki. -Jacky720 (t|c) 15:53, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply! PPP-Man (talk) 16:20, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't think Kris is non binary, personally, in the Jevil boss fight, Jevil says "THIS IS IT BOISENGIRLS! SEE YA!", which implies that Kris isn't non binary, we just don't know if Kris is a girl or a boy. -Gerfeld

I guess all the times when Kris is directly referred to as "They" does't count then. Lumanator 01:25, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Not the most convincing argument for sure. "Boys and girls", just like "ladies and gentlemen", is commonly used to refer to everyone irrespective of their gender (and not to specifically refer to those with binary genders). -- Cube-shaped garbage can 08:12, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Kris Dreemur?

I'm fairly certain that Kris was confirmed to have the surname Dreemur in Noelle's blog. Should this page be moved? It's me, Christal! (Yay!). 23:30, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't think a URL segment on a dubiously canon web page is really enough evidence to move this page. -- Cube-shaped garbage can 19:08, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Lancer Cookie

I believe that the Lancer Cookie shall be listed as their spouse since a figure of authority pronounced them cookie and wife!

wait no that wasn't Lancer, that was mustache man, who has no authority, nevermind—Preceding unsigned comment added by Whyshouldisaymyname (talk • contribs) (please sign your comments using ~~~~)

Feedback (Tue, 02 Jun 2026 22:30:08 UTC)

Resolved "They also have some interest in cars, but seem to be embarrassed about it." The source for this line refers to them being embarrased about checking out the car magazines in front of other people. Car magazines sometimes have people in underwear on the front of them and that is what the source is most likely referring to ~2026-44938 (unregistered) (talk) 22:30, 2 June 2026 (UTC)

That's a good point, I removed that sentence now since it didn't seem conclusive or noteworthy. Thank you for the feedback! KockaAdmiralac (talk) 22:37, 2 June 2026 (UTC)

Feedback (Thu, 11 Jun 2026 21:08:55 UTC)

Unresolved I do find the 50+ citations on their pronouns amusing, but I believe it is overkill for a fact that is common sense.

It would be best practice to remove less credible sources and those that prove the same fact (such of their use in-game) more than once. Consider keeping sources with more credibility, such as ones relating to developers of the game (hopefully a few exist), rather than quotes from the game itself.

I understand this was done to prove a point, but it has the inverse effect of boosting this article's popularity to more vandals. ~2026-875040 (unregistered) (talk) 21:08, 11 June 2026 (UTC)

Quotes from the game itself have priority over ones relating to developers of the game. Remex Remige (talk) 21:13, 11 June 2026 (UTC)

Unfortunately it is not common sense, and the pronoun usage in-game is as important as developer commentary, both of which are already present on the article, and this article actually has not gotten vandalized much, either.

Now the topic of moving the citations to a different article is a different matter. — Link [ T | C ] 22:01, 11 June 2026 (UTC)

Feedback (Thu, 11 Jun 2026 22:39:41 UTC)

Resolved I think there needs to be more citations for their pronouns, I'm not fully believing this yet. ~2026-760689 (unregistered) (talk) 22:39, 11 June 2026 (UTC)

Unfortunately this is all we have for now. But once Chapter 5 comes out, we will surely have more! KockaAdmiralac (talk) 23:44, 11 June 2026 (UTC)